Rejection is Collateral For The Life You Want

So, I came across this theory called self-verification theory, which is the jargity term to mean that we look for what verifies our sense of self. So, if you feel bad about yourself, research finds that if you're saying these affirmations, like, I am loved, you feel worse after. Or when people compliment you, your blood pressure increases, or when positive ends happen to you, you get sick or months later. What is happening there?

family today's guest began her career by studying what happens to a person when they're told repeatedly that they don't quite belong. Now as a researcher at the University of New Orleans, Dr. Marissa Franco has spent years examining racial identity and validation alongside the psychological cost of being made to feel like an outsider. She studied across so many populations and genres of work that it would be full-hearted to reduce her work to just that she did a long racial identity though. Her work has become the foundation for everything she's done since then. Her New York Times, their selling book, Plutonic, brought the science of friendship to a conversation that desperately needed it. And her new book worth is going even deeper. She's talking about the science of self-esteem and why so much of what we've been told about actually makes things worse. And she solutions around how to resolve from that. The question underneath all of it is when she's been asking since her beginning though in her professional life. And that is, what does it take for a human being to feel truly sane and to be secure enough to let somebody else in? I'm so excited. Join us on AskJBH. Dr. Marissa, thank you and welcome to AskJBH.

Hi, thank you so much for having me.

Oh my goodness, are you kidding? I am delighted to have you and have been enthusiastic to have you for quite some time. Let's jump into it though, because, you know, your new book worth makes a claim that most self-help on confidence actually makes things worse. We've got some people who have read with you on that and are willing to weigh science up and so, what a struggle to research is actually found.

So I came across this theory called self-arrification theory, which is a jargony term to mean that we look for what verifies our sense of self. So if you feel bad about yourself, research finds that if you're saying these affirmations, like I am loved, you feel worse after, or when people compliment you, your blood pressure increases, or when positive ends happen to you, you get sick or a month later. What is happening there? Well, you can think about self-worth as a theory of self. The theory is that If I feel bad about myself, I feel like people are going to reject me, harm's going to come to me. And if something happens that counters that theory, then it feels like something's trying to manipulate you to feel so good about yourself. So you're only be crushed later, right?

Because your theory isn't actually changing.

So success becomes scary, positive relationships becomes scary, because they don't match your theory of self.

That's interesting. A year of causing me to go right back to my parenting. of my kids when they were very young. Today they have kids, each of them has a two-year-old. And I remember that, especially our daughter at a very young age. When I say very young, I'm talking three or four years old. She said two things to me that have hung with me all these years and I'm listening and looking at it as I'm experiencing time now with her son or with my son's daughter. Um, she said, mom, stop saying, but when you say, but it means everything you just said before is no longer true. The other thing she said to me was, why are you trying to make me see me different than ice cream? And my husband and I believe in something called positive affirmations, and somewhere on the shelves right above where you can see here are loads and loads of pamphlets, Dr. Marvissa, with affirmations I wrote, and I have for years told people writing affirmations is positive. You open something, though, because I don't hear you saying writing affirmations is not positive, especially if it's coming from your place of law. I don't hear you saying, don't push that, perhaps. I don't know what else, as their affirmation, even if you're doing it from a place you think is giving or positive. right after getting you right.

You're exactly getting it right. It's that when people see us too positively instead of us receiving that, it's what comes up is fear. I'm going to let you down at the end of the day. You're going to figure out what it really is. This is so much pressure because it's so far into our only view of how we see ourselves that it becomes more threatening. So it's not that affirmations don't work. It's just that they have to be aligned with where Yeah, so instead of saying I am loved, maybe you can say my dog loves me or I have this one quality about myself that I really like whatever it is that you can actually internalize according to your theory of self.

I enjoy when I am loved, but you talk about pressure just then you've also found that compliments can raise blood pressure and people with the low self as thing. So Dr. Marissa, now this is a maybe too much of a question, please. kind of break it down into the pieces that are relevant to what we're talking about right now because here's what amassing you what does the fact that people's blood pressure goes up when they're complimented if they have low self-esteem tell us about the gap between what we offer people and what they actually need and Does this any of this, really, in your thinking, feed to the prevalence of high blood pressure present in various groups of people, or commonly share at stress times, like health, epidemics, and war. Does it prove itself in those dynamics as well?

Yeah, that's a great extrapolation. And what it's revealing is the discrepancy is like, sometimes we're thinking we're loving someone, but what's actually happening is we're making that person feel misunderstood. More inauthentic or unseen, right? If we're loving them so much beyond their own, sense of self and then if this is far into you can think of it like if somebody said you're an amazing football player, I can't wait to see you play and you've never played football, you'd be like I do not want to go on that field like they're going to figure out what a sham I am and that's how I can feel with someone for a hot for low self esteem.

I got a picture on a wall in my office over there of my son playing basketball, and I remember he was heading out to play ball against a really good team, and we were telling him how great he was, and again, my daughter is like, stop telling him he's Michael Jordan mom, that's not even his goal, but regardless, you're putting a lot of pressure on him to go out there, just telling him to have a good time and do his best, and he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, This is a kid, you know, and I'm like, oh, Brett, you got this man, you're going to do this and you're going to kill it. And she's like, no, just telling him, oh, Brett, you're going to enjoy yourself, man. And you're going to learn a lot. Yeah, I mean, you're really, really hidden home today. That's it. Now, Emily, I hope you guys are enjoying Dr. Marisa as much as I am.

I love the way that you're really applying things here and yeah, I think like what your daughter said is like I think when we're in this place of always feeling like I have to be the best or I have to evaluate myself at all versus like cultivating high self esteem or true self-worth perhaps is about how do I express who I am? How do I allow myself to enjoy and experience and have fun rather than evaluating it as good or bad, right? That's the kind of orientation that allows us to actually grow and not internalize negative experiences. Because no matter what, I'm expressing where I'm at, I'm moving towards the joy of this experience.

And the idea of me we're in a season right now of the World Cup, the idea of winning is associated often with beating somebody else. And I need defining a line and I'm asking you how to we do this, define a line between telling our kids they're winning by enjoying the goal of going out and having a great time and getting the health and spiritual benefits from it. sometimes can be a form of winning as much as beating the other team without creating people who never have any sense of measurement around competition, because competition is healthy too.

Yes. So you can, I mean, you can certainly like compete and win. But the idea is that your sense of self is an implicated, right? Like it's joyful to win. It's joyful to compete. But if I fail, I'm not a failure as a person, right? And so I think you can lean into that competition, the enjoyment of it, while detaching it from your sense of overall worth as a human being. because we think that, you know, we think that it might be valuable to stake so much of our work, but it's actually quite paralyzing. Like if I feel like I need to do this thing to be a worthy person, I feel pressure, I feel anxiety, and I don't actually end up doing as well as the person who's like, you know, I'm just having fun and enjoying this experience, and I'm learning new things, doing as I go, and I'm trying to get better because I enjoy getting better, and I have a natural desire to do that.

We're in such a time in this world, Dr. Marissa Plia. I mean, it's the perfect conversion of every thing we've got. War, we've got a eye, we've got the success of coming out of COVID. I'm putting that in close because a lot of people's experiences did not reveal or feel that way. But we're basically at a time, I guess, when information is so available to us in such a rapid and full way we have a lot to measure ourselves into and from. And the self esteem industry is enormous. Just think it's been pointing people in the wrong direction. And even in asking you that, if so, what does this mean? Knees to be done. And what do you think of anything individuals who share your opinion can do to course correct?

Yeah, this is a great question. And I think, Um, we, I think we are being pointed in the, in the wrong direction, even by really well meaning influences, right? Like, I think often there's like, for example, the self-love moment where it almost feels like you can't express if you don't love yourself, but you don't love your body, right? But I think my approach to work is it's a lot more about being who you are and having that be okay. And so it's okay if I don't, like, I think the most worthy people can admit when they and it's okay if like you're struggling, it's okay. And only by acknowledging where we're actually at, can we do anything about it? Because you can't heal from what you don't acknowledge. And so a lot of the times we feel like we need to present a certain way, we need to have a certain reputation, we need to achieve a certain thing in order to be worthy. But I'm saying, take the There's nothing you need to do to be enough, you already are enough, and instead of ignoring or trying to escape the parts of yourself that you feel flawed or aren't measuring up, how can you turn towards those parts of you and show compassion and say, I care about you too, and even if you do wrong, like I still think that you're a value, right, if the that's the way that you can talk to yourself, it's not I have to be the best, but even if I'm not so great at this, it's still okay, I still value myself.

OK, OK, OK, so let's sectionalize now. Your research reaches across humankind. Your PhD research was on racial identity invalidation.

What happens to some deep diets? Oh, my God. Let me deep-dives.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So basically, you're studying what happens to people when they're repeatedly asked to explain or justify who they are. How did you decide to pursue this specific discipline? And can the same be said of anyone from a specific group? We talked about that a little bit already, say for instance, I'm from the south and venturing into a different culture dynamic as I, in my early adulthood, presented me with some, some anxieties, concerns, thoughts and special predicaments that may be the identification group of southerners. would have regardless of race. Do you hear the question in that?

So are you sort of saying what's the intersection between experiencing this invalidation of identity and this idea of worth? And then, how many understand the sort of southern or piece that you're getting at?

Yeah, well, I use that as an example because while your study did look into racial identity invalidation, I had cultural invalidation oftentimes simply because you don't hear it now, do you, but I'm so, oh, so stubborn, you know, and so, in a grading as a as a young adult into Northeastern and oftentimes into world cultures, I had an identification with my

Well, it's such an interesting question and nobody has asked me this because people don't do as much of a deep dive as you do, David. So I appreciate it. But behind the racial identity evaluation, which I, you know, as someone who's biracial and kind of has this ambiguous appearance, often people. Um, assume that I have to act a certain way to be valued or to belong or to be legitimate.

Oh, how so? How so?

Um, well, you know, like I guess I have, I'm my parents or Caribbean, not necessarily African-American, and so I don't necessarily have those same cultural touch points. So you can sort of hear from the way I talk, right? Like, I'm not necessarily. Um, maybe using colloquial terms and stuff. And so that can be attached to a lot of shame.

You're not working there going yo, bro.

I'm not. I am not necessarily, right? And so that could be attached to a lot of shame, which is like, well, you only belong here if you're, if you're acting in these particular ways. And I think what I think about invalidation and the connection to work, like, What I see as central to both of them is really when you think about self-esteem and like how We try to pull people into feeling better about themselves by all these compliments by it by like, you know You need to feel good about yourself or you need to do this to feel good about yourself It's it's all of them are what's called contingencies of worth which is you're only worthy if you're only worthy If right whereas actually getting people feel worthy is about who are you not you have to be different than who you are But who are you? How do I get to know you as you are? and how do I value you as you are instead of trying to make you into something different to be acceptable. And so even if your close friend, for example, has low self esteem, has struggle with self esteem. I, when I try to compliment these friends and they reject it, and they're no, that's not me. I don't accept that compliment. Now I understand that what I need to do to make these people feel good about themselves isn't to try to tell them how amazing they are, but to try to validate when they're struggling and to say it's okay to struggle with your sense of self, you know, all of us struggle with our sense of self from time to time, like telling me more about that, this is besting you showing curiosity and bearing witness to who they actually are is what actually helps reduce that shame.

You know, that's so interesting that you talked about yourself in the context of answering this question and being vibrational. And well, first of all, let me just show you. I just got this picture pop up before you came on earlier of my little grandson and horrible. But when you put it inside me, perhaps because you may look at features and not just color. you can see that there's an association here that little stronger than just human. However, my daughter and my son, who are both adults, appear quite what we call, you know, your P and white and their dad, my husband, your P and and they've had conversations oftentimes at our dinner table which is usually up to 18 or 20 people on a Sunday. and these people are from different cultures and ethnicities, all talking around how you get to identify, not how you identify, how you get to identify. So that's why like pause commented, when you mentioned your biracial because getting to identify as somebody else's opinion of where you into it, I think, and how you identify, is your own experience that fuels your opinion about how you identify. And sometimes it is the dinner table more than the DNA that allows you to be able to walk into the world with a certain perspective of yourself. And that can fuel, in my experience, and in the perspective I've seen from people close to me, their experience is that can fuel confidence or it can fuel, you know, lack of confidence. You've written Dr. Marissa that insecurity is the hidden engine underneath most friendship struggles. So we're talking to people who are now integrating beyond their nuclear. family. If four people look at their social skills, what do they need to understand about themselves?

Yeah. Well, if you think that deep down, you are fundamentally unlikable. and you're fundamentally unworthy. So much of connection is taking social risks. I'm initiating, I'm sharing that I like this person, I'm being vulnerable, right? And when you feel unworthy, rejection hits you so deeply because you already feel rejectable that you don't want to take any of these risks. And so you're more invested in not being rejected, then you are in living the life that you really want. And that is why insecurity can really get in the way of connection.

Wow, wow, wow. I'm going to have to just carve that out and share that on social media just that little piece. That's big. And all of the conferences I've been attending recently, the interactions in business and general discourse, are speaking to a goal. in question to what you've just spoken to in answer or solution. So thank you for that. There does though exist a lot of advice about how to project confidence. Lots of it's professionally given and then you know we've got even more thrown on to social media from just life experience people are having our thoughts they want to express. But is there any area where projecting confidence has gotten wrong? especially pertaining to what confidence actually is from the social scientific perspective that you give us. And is that important to us?

Yeah, I think it is important to ask. I think You know, this idea of projecting confidence, right? Sometimes it can make us more confident if it feels close to our sense of self. But if it feels like I'm acting, I feel like I'm an actor. I don't feel like who I am at all, right? Then it sets us up to be more insecure because fundamentally we become loved and esteemed for someone that we're not. And the lesson that we get is I have to be someone else to feel value to feel like people take me seriously, right? And so that's why my book worth it's really about How do you find that confidence that that esteem inwardly? How do you go internal to value yourself and value your feelings and value your unique needs and value the ways that you see or see the world to treat yourself like you matter over and over and over and over again, so that sense of confidence feels like a genuine reflection of where you're actually at.

And you know your book worth is incredible and while It is complete in how it shares and teaches. I could almost ask you to take, you know, every two or three pages of it and write a whole, another book just about what was real. It just goes so deep. Dr. Marissa, you made a deliberate choice to leave academic research decided to move into policy and then public communication. What were you seeing inside of institutions that made you want to do that? Can you share that?

Well, first, I found academia quite isolating. And I found it to be, at least, I was at a research one institution. And I found that I needed to do much more of what was expected to me or there's this culture of elitism, where it's sort of like, You know, you have to publish these papers in these journals, or you have to be a professor at a research one institution, so much so that it was leading people to abandon themselves, and not live where they wanted to live, or not pursue what they wanted to pursue, or, you know, become such work of hollows that they're not living an enjoyable life, and I think that's what cultures of prestige can often do, where it's like you're only valuable if you achieve these certain goals, cultures of elitism, that Now it feels like if I'm not doing this thing, I'm not where the invaluable is a person and I'm almost disconnected from what I actually want because there's so much pressure to do this thing. And so that was really my struggle with academia where I was like, I'm trying to publish as much as possible. It feels like a frenzy. I feel disconnected from myself. I'm just trying to do what's asked of me. And even like with teaching, I was told that like teaching is a, a nuisance like gets in the way of your academic work. And so I now I love teaching. I have a position that's teaching. I'm no longer on the tenure track. It's so fulfilling to me. It's so joyful to me. And honestly, J.B.H. for a long time, I felt like I'm not going to be perceived as having value in the academic world, because I'm no longer publishing research and getting these grids. It was I was invited to give a speaking event at American Psychological Association. And then that moment, I was like, oh, like, I still am valued even though I'm a more public intellectual and I'm doing these things in the public. And so that really helped me. But I ultimately think worth has helped me too in that, like I said, like, now the question is not, how do I live up to standards or expectations? Like, I'm trying to live out the question of like, how do I become the person I want to be or how do I allow myself to live in a way that's most aligned with me? And so some people will see that as less than perhaps, I don't know, I mean, my books have been successful. So that helps, but yeah, that the sort of question has changed and I feel less willing to to play a game that that requires me to alienate me for myself and I validate more that like the life I want to live is legitimate rather than it being a threat to me living up to these standards and expectations. So it feels like I've become more of the puppeteer of my own life. Instead of feeling like someone else was pulling the strings and I was just kind of going along with it.

You know, having a conversation in the format where having it does require me to keep themed towards something that can be digestible and helpful to our family listening. yet I keep wanting to cheat and just make it about how is what she's saying, helping me in my life and myself. And this is a rare occasion for me as a host of a podcast. Let me see if I can thread the two together by saying this. So are you familiar with who Kiki Palmer is? Yes, yes. Okay, so Kiki's done her TED talk. I think that's coming out and she's got her book. One of the things though, that she said that you tweaked for me just now and articulated in a way I can relate for myself, which I think is our family experience, who's listening now, our broader family experience. And that is the question of am I, is what I'm presenting what I'm really living, am I experiencing that? And while it can be obvious for us that someone who lives in a public life and earns a living real characters, we all have elements of that, whether that is me as an entrepreneur or someone as an executive in an office, which many of the people listening right now are, is what we're projecting What we're experiencing and better point it to your your question and how you chose for yourself and my using my skill sets and evidencing them in the world in the way that I really can enjoy for myself. That's a really question to find an answer to and how to do that. Then when you go and lay it on top of that, listen in now, Dr. Varissa, you said that friendship is no longer a secondary relationship, rather it's the model all relationships now follow, at least that's what I take from what you see. How does this change what people should be building in their relationships to others, whether that's marriage or workplace? They're still looking to eventualize themselves in their everyday lived experiences.

Yeah, absolutely. You know, when I said that more relationships are becoming like friendships, what I mean by that is that for better or for worse, people are increasingly demanding that their marriage, their relationships for their family, our relationships where they feel safe, where they feel like the other person respects and values who they are, respects and values their personal opinions, their own autonomy, right? And historically, this hasn't been true. Relationships, especially with family, where relationships of obligation, you know, your family's going to be in your life. No matter what, but now we have up to 25% of people estranged from a certain family member, unless those relationships mirror what we look for in friendships, which is mutual regard, mutual respect, and things like that.

And so having families, families, families, yeah, exactly.

Exactly. And so we are demanding the ability to be authentic and to be valued as we authentically are. something that we cultivate in our friendships. Now that's a skill that we're demanding everywhere. And so it's a skill that we need to cultivate in our marriage, it's a skill that we might need to cultivate with our kids, like those that ability to be more emotionally available, more emotionally intelligent and attuned to other people.

Well, you know, Ayah is helping us in a lot of ways. A lot of people are having something, how it's harming us, and I'm not going into Ayah's your date. That's not where I'm taking you. I'm just, I'm just saying it's providing us a lot of data that we can put algorithms to. to help us come up with answers and the data on friendship networks between people who identify as men is dark because this is suggesting that they've collapsed in ways that people who identify as women have not. Now, is that a cultural failure or a structural one in your opinion or in your research, does your research speak to that? Or is something deeper going on about how male

Yeah. Well, I think we have defined male identity masculinity in ways that are antithetical to connection, in like expressing no emotion, not being vulnerable, sort of like being superior to everybody else. And Those are behaviors that don't contribute to connection or even, you know, this is there's this term homo hysteria, which describes men's fears of being perceived as gay, and that the more men have this homo hysteria, the less intimacy they have with men in general, not just sexual, right? And so there's all of these ways that we have develop the certain kind of masculinity that can really inhibit connection. And I don't think it has to be that way. I've seen now more with I guess the the men is very documentary that's like men are not worthy at all and the only way to be worthy is to XYZ by my program. Right, that, yeah, fundamentally, I think we, we need to define masculinity in ways that come with men are inherently worthy to and their values, their emotional world is valuable, their vulnerability is valuable is something to listen to and something to love men for instead of. Feeling forcing men to be in a certain box to have status or be a value to other people. And so it's giving men, I think if we're to allow men to have better connections, we are allowing them to be there full selves and not to feel like they need to act a certain way to be valued by people.

Yeah, and I think that dynamic and this is global, not just for particular to the United States where I think both of us are sitting right now. Over the last few years, there have been, over the last several years, there have been lots of organizations and efforts that seek to validate and elevate the presence of women or this minority group or that minority group. in whatever sphere we're talking about, whether it's financial, business, you know, social health, and one of the things that I've been conscious through the years to give attention to that's always been commented on afterwards in a way that suggests a lot of times we weren't conscious is that when we say we're pro female or we're pro this or pro that, it doesn't mean anti something else. And a lot of men have set to me that whenever they've heard pro-women's issue or pro this, they felt it was against them. They were misplaced. that it would force somebody else. So how do we create genuinely secure relationship? She said friendships are becoming the model for all relationships. How do you create genuinely secure relationships that even in the absence of loneliness present something that's real and become markers for how we can measure our presence in the experiences who we may also, two things can be true, feel that they are not caring about us. Is that a fair question?

yeah i think i think security really comes from vulnerability gone right it's when someone's vulnerable and we accept them and we support them and we remind them how love they are but i think the struggle with modern masculinity is that the vulnerability never happens because you know masculinity is you shouldn't be vulnerable right you should have it all together you should be able to take care of everything on your own and so that is that makes it hard to develop really secure connections and is can be, I think, a great impediment to developing those secure relationships and those secure friendships. And I think when we look at men's friendships, a lot of the times, they're kind of focused on what's called a third object, which is like, we're focused on the game. We're playing golf together, right? Instead of like that sort of vulnerable sharing that tends to happen a lot more often in women's friendships. So You know, I would say for men who are one in closer friendships, the first step is to take the risk of vulnerability. What are you struggling with? What's hard? What's got you preoccupied right now? What's a way in your life that you wish it wasn't this way? And you, you have to go first because of the way that men are socialized, right? Waiting for them to go first might never happen. So you're going to have to share that vulnerability first. And it's scary and you don't know how the other person's going to respond and it's the only way to find deeper friendships that you might be looking for.

That's powerful and that's another takeaway that we're going to pull out. Everything you're saying is just so dynamic. So thank you for that. But you've really pulled those two out. We talked a little bit about around AI. AI companionship apps are being marketed. That's a solution to loneliness now from an attachment science standpoint. What doctor actually is happening in those interactions and doesn't matter.

Yeah, so my concern about AI is is really my concern about social media continued, which is people that use social media are actually the most or the least lonely. compared to people that don't. And the difference is, are they using social media to replace in-person interactions or to compliment them? And so people that use social media to reach out to a friend to figure out what events are going on in their community, right? They're the least lonely of everybody. It's the people that come home, and they're just swiping, and they're just doom-scrolling, scrolling, scrolling, scrolling, going for hours, those are the ones that are the most lonely. And that's what I think about in the conversation around AI, which is, is it replacing human interaction or is it preparing for human interaction, right? Like, you know, some people use AI because they want to have talk through a hard thing, and they want some advice on how to talk through it in a way that's caring for both people, right? It's sort of a means to an end to try to improve your relationships. And I think that's the value that we can have in AI when our primary attachment becomes to the AI, we're just not going to feel as truly connected as we do when we have people that are in person. But I think what the AI did really to your question on attachment is, it's taking our powerful drives for attachment, for safety, for viewing validated, and giving it to us on overdrive. And that's why it can be so intoxicating for people, right? But at the same time, like a lot of our relationship growth comes from friction, and so we won't necessarily grow in the same way if our primary attachment figure becomes the AI. So I think of it really the ways that we can use it for connection is as a bridge to in-person connection rather than as a replacement for it.

We're talking about catcher mistakes that are not hard, built, though, aren't we? Let me put this in front of you that supports what's underneath my question. There are a lot, there are a lot of people who I think I knew relatively well in myself included in that group, pre-COVID who had certain levels of activity, interest, essence was one way. And some came back, rip roaring to get back to normal. And others really seem to express I kind of like the cave. And I'm not comfortable or trusting to get back out or maybe it wasn't all I thought of. We could go on a long, long list. I want to be appreciative of your time. So let me What impact does the A.I.N.S. and the social media of things? Because they always have been around since pre-me a century. We just kind of really get into it now. What impact does it have? Or does it have equal or stronger impact on framing how we express his humans from a character And an emotional way, as anything else in our body, you remember they used to say about children when you're raising them, it's not always nature, sometimes it's nurture. You have a herd element.

And it's the new nature. you get what I'm saying. Mm-hmm. So you're asking. Just to make sure you're. I'm a familiar question correctly about how sort of like, AI is nurturing us in this time and nurturing how we go about connection and sort of like, what impact that's having on us make am I getting that clearly?

as a result of how it's impacting, how we see ourselves, not just how we improve ourselves, or rethink our abilities, is it actually becoming a strong and influence on how we see ourselves and how we identify. And it's not in our lives, you know what we're going to do.

Yeah, I mean, I think really what I'm talking about and worth is connecting inward to what you value or your unique way of being. And I think AI is a great aggregator. And so what it's doing for us is it's telling us how to act a particular way and assuming that there's one best way to act, right, rather than it being about the sort of nuances of the circumstances. And so I think it's sort of reducing it, I'm making us perhaps trust ourselves less that we're asking the AI before we ask ourselves, right? Like, what do I want to do? What's the best, of course, of action? And that's where I see that the value of AI is to be, maybe a member of your board. But it's not to be the boss. It's not to be the boss. And so making sure we're using AI responsibly is not outsourcing our knowledge of what's right or what's the next step for us or what should we be doing but leaving it to just be of one voice of advice that we are then discerning of does this actually fit does this actually resonate.

That's so powerful. It could have been the mic drop. I got another question to ask you though. It's the question I wanted to ask you beyond any other that we have on this call and that is looking at everything you know now. the science, the policy work, the public conversation, what's the one thing or top things we keep getting wrong about what it actually takes to connect with another person and especially from a connection with ourselves?

This is such a good question. You know, I think about, because my books are on like attachment styles, which is more unfamiliar. Yeah, it's that you have this sort of internal template about how people will act and how people will treat you and you kind of, you might think that people will abandon you if you're anxiously attached or people will shame you if you get too close and that's because you're avoidantly attached. And secure is, you know, your family has treated you pretty well. So you go into relationships assuming that you'll be treated pretty well. And I think a lot of the sort of feedback on worth and attachment theory has been that attachment styles is about. how you relate to others, and here's the way to be secure, but attachment style has to start with how do you relate to yourself. And your friendships have to be a reflection of what do I want in a friend, what makes me feel alive, what makes me feel authentic, what makes me feel genuine, versus I'm doing all of the right things to stay in a relationship with other people. And the truth is that if your relationships are a reflection of your sense of self, then that means, Sometimes, relationships will fall apart, or they will fracture, because if your default was to however I need to act to stay in relationship, even if it's at a cost to myself, when you start being more of yourself, some of those relationships will fall away, and so it's not about connecting with everyone, but it's about aligned connections that actually feel life-giving to you and what you uniquely want in a relationship. And I think so many of us are taught to Think about what's the right thing or, you know, be polite or be a good girl, right, especially with women like we're so socialized to be so generous towards other people, that this role replaces our own sense of self. And I think the first thing we need to do to really feel connected is, what do I actually want? Like what I look back at the relationships, what are the qualities of the ones that made me feel most alive and how do I turn my

Oh, I'm so glad that's the answer because I love, love, love the answer. Thank you. Thank you. Shall we go full for four?

Sure, sure.

Okay, so Dr. I'm going to ask you four questions. You wish you'll give four answers. There are no right or wrong answers. And the first one is you get to host a dinner. Who's at your table and why? And this can be from any point past in history to present. Can we keep it human?

but I I find it funny that you have to specify. Okay, definitely bell hooks. She's a wonderful intellectual who has expanded my mind so much throughout the book All About Love, which was like that loving someone is allowing them to express the truth of who we are, loving someone is encouraging their most authentic form. So that has been quite powerful for me, and she died with it. My life time didn't get to meet her, and I think that's really sad. Maybe also Oscar Wilde, if people, their picture of Dorian Gray, and he was an author, and he was just brilliant and witty and funny and kind of... Yeah, just I guess all these deep thinkers are who really appeal to me.

That's funny because I was just talking with some friends about going in and getting some Botox, right? Because you know that the smile crinkles are now a little bit stronger than smiles, right? Yeah. And um, and I brought up durian great, you know.

You might not do it.

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are often the ones who are suffering the most because they cannot get used to dysfunction when it's disguised as normal. He says so many brilliant things. I quote him in my book worth amply that like wow like yeah he really takes my breath away too. So I think we have a really good salon here. I think we have a really deep powerful discussion between the four of us.

Well, you know what, I'll make myself the fourth person. Yeah. We're ready. We're ready. We're ready. We're ready. We're ready. We're ready. We're ready. We're ready. We're ready. We're ready. We're ready. We're ready. We're ready. We're ready. We're ready. We're ready. We're ready. We're ready. We're ready. We're ready. We're ready. We're ready. We're ready. We're ready. We're ready.

I like Sam Smith, Sam Smith, and they're kind of fun music. I'm holy, but also really deep and profound. I think they have that song about being queer and what that was like and loving him and accepting that. I really like artists that make me feel things and feel like a del, for example, too, and like how to feel. I'll feel all of your feelings and feel all of your emotions.

It's so funny because I was thinking on the plane back to the country yesterday that Adele has made a song. that expresses thought and comfort or, as you mentioned, we grow from, you know, friction as well, around each emotion I've heard over these last year.

She's doing a work of work.

Right, like some artists, you know, you go to them when you want to feel this way, because they're going to do it for you so well. And the number and their delivery is going to be in a certain way. Adele has same. Think about her. I don't know. Maybe you already have me. That's why I'm here list. But any emotion or experience, any fear or strength, any power or weakness you're going through. She's delivered to some.

Exactly. Adele is always with you. Whatever your pain is, Adele is always with you.

We got two more, though, you got a show.

Sure, yeah. I was just going to share Lauren Hill, classic. Lauren Hill, I mean, her voice is amazing, her songs. I don't know. I still love them all to this day. Like she has sort of depth of emotion and her kind of raspy energy. She's just so cool. She has actually as a content. She has actually as a content. She has a content.

She has a content. She has a content. And she was just honored. And I think I heard, I think I heard her say, I want to be legitimate, truthful. I think I heard her say something to the effect of she had to think her parents because they gave her what so many people who are living in the artistic world she does didn't get. And while their music may have been influenced by it, not having that kind of love and support doesn't necessarily enhance you, something and influence you and not necessarily enhance you. And so she was thinking her parents. for always being there. And I think that plays out in that, not just the rest of this because I think that may be biological to a bit, but how she uses it as a tool certainly as skillful isn't it?

Yeah, exactly. She's a poet. She's a poet in an artist. And I think that's really beautiful. You can kind of see that in her lyrics. But I want a fun option, too. I feel like I'm like one dementia, and a lot of these answers. So maybe usher, because usher is 90's nostalgia for me, grew up on usher, just fun. You know, there goes my baby. Like closer, like just Usher is hot. He's he's timeless. He's still performing. He's still amazing. He's still going to make you come up in dance. Like he's always been a good guy. I feel like usher hasn't had many scandals. Like, I don't know. Usher is just a real model.

Well, you know what they got that you are such an intellect and a skillful teacher. Because you're quite a baby. Thank you, thank you. Okay, let's go to books there. From the intellect and the teaching, what for books, Dr. Melissa, do you recommend to our family listening right now and why?

Okay, so we're going to go with all about love by Bellhooks because she's going to teach you how to love and she's going to teach you what love really means from a place of worthiness if you have the listening to what we've been saying that book really changed my life and that like to love someone you can't try to control them or dominate them and that. Love is a practice rather than a feeling of infatuation and so many powerful things in that book I would also say 4,000 weeks by Oliver Bergman. I love Oliver Bergman and his his whole book is about I guess related to worth to that We only have 4,000 weeks. They're so up to live. There's so many things that we need to do in this lifetime We will never get to all of them. So instead start asking yourself what is most meaningful in this life for you Um, instead of trying to do all of the things that are in front of you, so that book really changed my life and gave me permission to like not get as caught up in like productivity culture, although. I probably am caught up in productivity culture a little bit still. I really liked the book Black Cake and that was a fiction book about a mother that dies and has all of these secrets and she slowly discloses them to her kids and all of these recordings and they're figuring out their identity and they're figuring out who they really were. So I think that that book is, I don't know, it's just a page turner. I find it really fascinating. And let me think of one book. Oh, you know what? The book that really got me into attachment theory for those people that are more curious about it and I really love attached by a mirror Levine. It's all about the different attachment styles. It gives you a blueprint for why are people responding me this way? Why do I get ghosted? Why don't I feel like we got close and they pulled away? Why am I so triggered by these things? Like it kind of is like a secret she code for relationships.

That's probably the one everybody's rushing to Kindle for right now, and that's what I've not read it, so I will as well.

Yeah, check it out.

Okay, shall we go four for four?

Yes, yes.

So Dr. is so, Melissa, what four pieces of advice do you offer our family listing right now? And if either of those pieces of advice were given to you by someone else, please give

Yeah, so the first one, this was in a moment when I was in therapy and I was struggling with a part of me that felt needy and secure. I might have felt like was pathetic and we kind of work with the divine and my therapy and, you know, some sort of God like force and my therapist was like, if you were to give a sense of care part of you up to the divine. What would the divine say? And I was like, the response I got was your perfect, too. Like that part of you is perfect, just as it is. And that was outside of my mindset because I thought, you know, you always have to change, and you always have to improve, but like actually, True change in improvement starts with loving and accepting and seeing the perfection in your flawed parts, so that's really the message I wanted to share and that's, you know, advice that I've given is like, whatever part of me I'm struggling with is perfect and there for a reason and I can be okay with it and I don't have to load shame on to it. That's really the advice. that I have to offer. Related to that, this is quote that really sticks out to me from this poet, Marian Woodman, and she says, it is easy to try to be better than who you are than it is to be who you are. And so my advice with that one is to truly be who you are, right? There's maybe you don't want to feel the way you feel. Maybe you think you're too much. Maybe you think that your reactions are too much. Maybe you think that these emotions make you weak, right? But like take off the label and start looking at who you really are and accepting who you really are. So those, I think, two piece of advice are very much related to each other, but I think I find both of them really powerful. The other is like related to my book platonic on making friends. It's really what I've learned from the research, which is that connection doesn't happen organically and you have to make it happen. People that think it happens organically are actually lonely or months later compared to people that think it's something that takes effort. And so you have to put yourself out there to connect. And the last thing I'll say is that rejection is collateral for going for the life that you truly want. And so when we are rejected, think of it as like, this is a byproduct of meat flourishing. This is a byproduct of me going for what I love in this lifetime and isn't that so beautiful in the bigger picture, even if I experience this rejection, that I am trying to live the best possible version of life for me. And so, I guess having a sort of more grander vision in the grand scheme of things when you have this low moments of projection.

That, dear doctor, is the mic drop.

Thank you.

Awesome, awesome, awesome from my heart to your home. Thank you, thank you, thank you. You know, before you came on this call, I really felt that I kind of knew you or at least I knew who I wanted you to be. You have just delivered so, so beyond anything that I wanted. Thank you so much. Let's talk again.

Absolutely, and thank you so much for your questions. I feel like you have, you have brought together the dots across my whole entire life and the depths of research that you've done on the different things I've done. Like, wow, it's like amazing. I feel like I have a whole new transformative view of the threads throughout my different experiences. So, thank you so much. You are great interviewer.

Okay, well, hey, look, we're going to move it beyond the interview the next time. We're just going to sit back and have a conversation. Okay. You found that the sofa you got, I'll find it. We don't even have to have a camera on, but we're going to talk. Okay.

Thank you. Thank you so much.

Thank you. Be well.